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	<title>Comments on: Burka bans, Brussels and bended knees</title>
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	<description>Politics, Europe, Parenting, Faith, Life... because the most interesting things need deep thought and high heels</description>
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		<title>By: heather</title>
		<link>http://www.bitmorecomplicated.com/burka-bans-brussels-and-bended-knees/comment-page-1/#comment-849</link>
		<dc:creator>heather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 19:02:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hi there, thanks for this reflection on christian action on poverty... obviously this is my day job so I am really interested in reflections on this.  We always say that it is our christian faith that is our motivation for work - not, as you say, any reward that may come our way.  Also, we refer to the equality of the creation in Gods&#039; eyes, the fact that He created all of us in his image, therefore we are all significant and deserve the same level of care and support, and that we are called to support all.  Yes, the poor will always be with us, it is a result of the way our society is structured, but that does not mean to say we need to accept inequality, rather we should constantly searching for ways to breach inequality.  Thanks again!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi there, thanks for this reflection on christian action on poverty&#8230; obviously this is my day job so I am really interested in reflections on this.  We always say that it is our christian faith that is our motivation for work &#8211; not, as you say, any reward that may come our way.  Also, we refer to the equality of the creation in Gods&#8217; eyes, the fact that He created all of us in his image, therefore we are all significant and deserve the same level of care and support, and that we are called to support all.  Yes, the poor will always be with us, it is a result of the way our society is structured, but that does not mean to say we need to accept inequality, rather we should constantly searching for ways to breach inequality.  Thanks again!</p>
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		<title>By: Eurogoblin</title>
		<link>http://www.bitmorecomplicated.com/burka-bans-brussels-and-bended-knees/comment-page-1/#comment-783</link>
		<dc:creator>Eurogoblin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:16:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bitmorecomplicated.com/?p=620#comment-783</guid>
		<description>&quot;Arms-twisted&quot;, mmmm, Jo? :-D I seem to remember you writing that you already had the post half-written! :-p

I&#039;m glad you posted this, though, because it&#039;s a fascinating read. I completely agree with you about the Christian heritage of Europe (although I&#039;m a secular humanist myself, I&#039;m nonetheless in love with religious art, architecture and philosophy). I would only add that Europe also has an important Orthodox, Jewish and Muslim heritage as well.

I&#039;m personally divided on the issue of burqa bans. I support civil liberties, so I should also support the freedom of individuals to wear what they want without government interference. However, I also think the burqa raises problems for integration - it sends a powerful message (as you said) that you are shutting yourself out of the world. I&#039;m ashamed to say I haven&#039;t made my mind up yet.

Still, this was a great post - and it deserves a whole post in response. I&#039;ll try to work on one tonight, to be published tomorrow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Arms-twisted&#8221;, mmmm, Jo? <img src='http://www.bitmorecomplicated.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':-D' class='wp-smiley' />  I seem to remember you writing that you already had the post half-written! :-p</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad you posted this, though, because it&#8217;s a fascinating read. I completely agree with you about the Christian heritage of Europe (although I&#8217;m a secular humanist myself, I&#8217;m nonetheless in love with religious art, architecture and philosophy). I would only add that Europe also has an important Orthodox, Jewish and Muslim heritage as well.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m personally divided on the issue of burqa bans. I support civil liberties, so I should also support the freedom of individuals to wear what they want without government interference. However, I also think the burqa raises problems for integration &#8211; it sends a powerful message (as you said) that you are shutting yourself out of the world. I&#8217;m ashamed to say I haven&#8217;t made my mind up yet.</p>
<p>Still, this was a great post &#8211; and it deserves a whole post in response. I&#8217;ll try to work on one tonight, to be published tomorrow.</p>
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		<title>By: rose22joh</title>
		<link>http://www.bitmorecomplicated.com/burka-bans-brussels-and-bended-knees/comment-page-1/#comment-765</link>
		<dc:creator>rose22joh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 16:14:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bitmorecomplicated.com/?p=620#comment-765</guid>
		<description>Thanks Conor.
I&#039;ve read André &#039;s piece and added the following comment:

Hi there, having been arm-twisted by Eurogoblin, I&#039;ve also written a post covering this over at my blog:
http://www.bitmorecomplicated.com/burka-bans-brussels-and-bended-knees/ 
Essentially I think I agree with Conor - if we&#039;ve fought for equal rights for women in Europe, that means allowing them the free choice to wear whatever type of headscarf they wish. 
However, it is the freedom of choice on the part of the woman that is important here and is the European value that we are trying to uphold, not their right to be oppressed by men. 
There is also an issue of respect - respect for genuine religious belief that covering up more is a sign of devout devotion however distasteful we in the West might find this. 
But is there an obligation to have respect for a culture in which you live?
That seems to be the crux of your argument. 
A Christian I knew working in Jordan used to wear a loose headscarf when out and about.  She didn&#039;t refuse and flaunt her Christianity as the reason, she complied with an acceptable level of &quot;decency&quot; that was expected of her culturally. 
So is it decent of us culturally to do something that contradicts a sense of decency sincerely held by others? 
What are the values that we hold that require us to do this? 
Actually, I think there&#039;s a degree of common sense that can be applied, rather than an outright ban.
For example where a full-face veil can stop someone doing their job properly (such as language teaching, where seing how the mouth moves is important to teach proper pronunciation) then we have a right to expect the job to be done in an acceptable manner.
But if you ask people with a genuine and heartfelt religious conviction to give it up for society&#039;s good, don&#039;t be surprised if they choose their faith.  
Why? Because faith is not just about today but about the future for all eternity. You don&#039;t want to get that one wrong!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Conor.<br />
I&#8217;ve read André &#8216;s piece and added the following comment:</p>
<p>Hi there, having been arm-twisted by Eurogoblin, I&#8217;ve also written a post covering this over at my blog:<br />
<a href="http://www.bitmorecomplicated.com/burka-bans-brussels-and-bended-knees/" rel="nofollow">http://www.bitmorecomplicated.com/burka-bans-brussels-and-bended-knees/</a><br />
Essentially I think I agree with Conor &#8211; if we&#8217;ve fought for equal rights for women in Europe, that means allowing them the free choice to wear whatever type of headscarf they wish.<br />
However, it is the freedom of choice on the part of the woman that is important here and is the European value that we are trying to uphold, not their right to be oppressed by men.<br />
There is also an issue of respect &#8211; respect for genuine religious belief that covering up more is a sign of devout devotion however distasteful we in the West might find this.<br />
But is there an obligation to have respect for a culture in which you live?<br />
That seems to be the crux of your argument.<br />
A Christian I knew working in Jordan used to wear a loose headscarf when out and about.  She didn&#8217;t refuse and flaunt her Christianity as the reason, she complied with an acceptable level of &#8220;decency&#8221; that was expected of her culturally.<br />
So is it decent of us culturally to do something that contradicts a sense of decency sincerely held by others?<br />
What are the values that we hold that require us to do this?<br />
Actually, I think there&#8217;s a degree of common sense that can be applied, rather than an outright ban.<br />
For example where a full-face veil can stop someone doing their job properly (such as language teaching, where seing how the mouth moves is important to teach proper pronunciation) then we have a right to expect the job to be done in an acceptable manner.<br />
But if you ask people with a genuine and heartfelt religious conviction to give it up for society&#8217;s good, don&#8217;t be surprised if they choose their faith.<br />
Why? Because faith is not just about today but about the future for all eternity. You don&#8217;t want to get that one wrong!</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn Beck: 40 days and 40 nights &#124; MorallyRight.org</title>
		<link>http://www.bitmorecomplicated.com/burka-bans-brussels-and-bended-knees/comment-page-1/#comment-760</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn Beck: 40 days and 40 nights &#124; MorallyRight.org</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jul 2010 03:45:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Burka bans, Brussels and bended knees « Bit more complicated… [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Burka bans, Brussels and bended knees « Bit more complicated… [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Eurocentric</title>
		<link>http://www.bitmorecomplicated.com/burka-bans-brussels-and-bended-knees/comment-page-1/#comment-757</link>
		<dc:creator>Eurocentric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 22:05:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bitmorecomplicated.com/?p=620#comment-757</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://theeuropeancitizen.blogspot.com/2010/07/french-deputies-ban-marriage-in-attempt.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I agree&lt;/a&gt;. The stated aim of these bans is to prevent the oppression of women, yet instead of working on building trust between communities (or at least between communities and the state) with state bodies or backed charities that oppressed women can feel they can turn to, this just flatly tells women what they&#039;re not allowed to wear.

I can&#039;t see the ban being effective in living up to its stated aim (women caught in oppressive family and community situations will likely have more pressure on them to conform), and it&#039;s wholly disproportionate in limiting people&#039;s right to a private life and religious expression.

I&#039;ve been debating this with André over at &lt;a href=&quot;http://mounteulympus.blogspot.com/2010/07/french-ban-of-burqa-is-good-thing.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;MountEUlympus&lt;/a&gt;, who&#039;s made a case for it on integration grounds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://theeuropeancitizen.blogspot.com/2010/07/french-deputies-ban-marriage-in-attempt.html" rel="nofollow">I agree</a>. The stated aim of these bans is to prevent the oppression of women, yet instead of working on building trust between communities (or at least between communities and the state) with state bodies or backed charities that oppressed women can feel they can turn to, this just flatly tells women what they&#8217;re not allowed to wear.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t see the ban being effective in living up to its stated aim (women caught in oppressive family and community situations will likely have more pressure on them to conform), and it&#8217;s wholly disproportionate in limiting people&#8217;s right to a private life and religious expression.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been debating this with André over at <a href="http://mounteulympus.blogspot.com/2010/07/french-ban-of-burqa-is-good-thing.html" rel="nofollow">MountEUlympus</a>, who&#8217;s made a case for it on integration grounds.</p>
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